Silk Road forums
Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: fyg on September 09, 2012, 10:43 pm
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so i am starting a group as the name implies. at this time, the group is for USA vendors only, but i hope that offshoots will sprout up in other countries.
membership to the group is easy as you only have to follow a few simple rules. rule number one should be obvious, but ill list it anyway:
1. Vow to only require a buyer to FE responsibly and with good reason
2. Always use delivery confirmation numbers (DCN)
3. Encourage proper use of the escrow system
4. Encourage proper use of the feedback system
5. Encourage proper use of the forums
6. Protect yourself from scammers
1. Vow to only require a buyer to FE responsibly and with good reason
this serves several purposes. the first is that FE is against SR rules. secondly, it gives the buyer an extra layer of security and comfort to know that the seller will come through. it also should be forcing you to take a look at the buyers stats and develop a standard operating procedure for selling based on those stats. take responsibility.
2. Always use delivery confirmation numbers (DCN)
dcn is not a tracking number. the slips are free in any post office and add 85 cents to the cost of postage and its well worth it. they are very useful when trying to figure out what went wrong with any bad orders. they give you a tangible proof that you did send the product. it also works against scam vendors who would try the old fake letter trick with the dcn. SR support would spot this very easily in the resolution center and revoke any seller account doing it. a vendor with a history of packages arriving that has a dcn looks a lot better in the resolution center than the scammers new account with no previous buying history.
3. Encourage proper use of the escrow system
people seem to forget that the escrow system is there for a reason. its so that quality vendors will rise to the top, and scammers will fall by the wayside. its not perfect, but when used correctly, it works.
4. Encourage proper use of the feedback system
it is not well known across the road that you can finalize an order without leaving feedback. its not posted in the buyers/sellers guides. a protip that should be passed along. proper use of the feedback system is essential. posts of "FE will update" that are never updated are damaging to the community. proper feedback form should be emphasized, but not required.
5. Encourage proper use of the forums
so much knowledge locked away here with a search function as the key. most of us already post links to our forum review links.
6. Protect yourself from scammers
take responsibility and use common sense to not let yourself be scammed. too often now scammers are taking the face of trusted partners. never build up so much trust as to think the other person will never scam you, no matter how long youve done business or how well you know them. the ones closest to you as the old saying goes. dont sell $2k of product to someone with 30 buys that only spent $20. start of smaller with new buyers, even if they have a very good previous history. break down large shipments into several smaller ones. think first, act second.
what does this accomplish? it provides buyers with a reference to truly trusted vendors that are confident enough in their product and shipping method, that escrow only makes them shine even brighter. it also gives vendors an extra layer in disputes to say im a member of this group, we dont ask anyone to finale early because we are the trusted sellers, i have my dcn and i know that item arrived. it also makes it tougher for the common scammer because he knows he is not dealing with a common vendor.
if you would like to join, follow the rules above, and add this tag to your profile page and pm me here or on SR and ill add your name to the list here. be sure to include a link to your vendor profile page or you will be added to the supporters list instead. the tag:
Proud Member of USA S.A.F.E. (Sellers Against Finalizing Early)
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=41740.0
And now the list of USA S.A.F.E. Vendors (alphabetical):
funyankeeguy
USA S.A.F.E Supporters (chronological):
*pm me to be the first*
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Ugh, maybe it's just the negative bob in me, but I this is surely going to fail <.< Sorry to burst Your bubble :c That is, because of a simple reason: vendors would rather get the money up front than waiting for it to sit at escrow.
~~sitamaja
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I have only asked one person to FE, ever. That person had a refund rate above 50% and an auto finalization rate above 40% I pride my self on taking all orders and not asking people to FE, but this one was outside my comfort zone.
Odd, when I told him he would have to FE he opted to take his business elsewhere.
The point is, I would only ask some one to FE if there stats were so far out of whack that I had no confidence in them.
I do disagree with the way many vendors are using FE. Asking everyone new to FE is a bit much. I also believe it has it's use, some one with bad stats trying to establish a better rep would be one.
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the vendor shouldnt list a product for sale if he isnt prepared to wait for the escrow. quality vendors are aware of this. really low level shady guys are the ones that need that money right away. maybe its just an opinion but a vendor should have enough of a buffer that the money in escrow is like money in the bank. a quality vendor with a solid history should look at money in escrow the same as money in his/her pocket. i think this group will help establish a new breed of vendors and buyers.
quotes arent working for me but maybe a better answer than asking him to FE would be to start off with a small order, or breaking it up into smaller shipments. perhaps then you could have still made the sale. or perhaps as the customer didnt buy from you anyway, and maybe his intention was to scam. in which case he wouldnt have accepted your offer of a smaller order anyway. in which case you refuse to deal with him. in either case, you are not scammed, and you never have to ask to FE.
it can be done. you just have to think with your head and not your wallet.
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it can be done. you just have to think with your head and not your wallet.
Ok, I'm no vendor, but I'd love to see You talking the same story after You've been scammed 2-3 times. USA S.A.F.E will turn to USA B.A.F.E = Buyers always finalize early... I think it's rather funny how You think that other vendors, who started vending to earn MONEY, will start to think with their head(heart) and not with their wallet.
~~sitamaja
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To be honest, I am not worried about the wallet at all. I am only worried about scammers.
I have no issue with the escrow, or waiting tell it auto-finalizes. Hell, I can go months with out even cashing out my bitcoin. Money is not the issue.
It was a small order (Under $25) It could not have been broken up any more than it was.
The point was, his options were simply FE or no-sale. I would have turned down the sale all together, but if he was willing to FE then I was willing to take the chance on him.
That, in my book is where FE comes into play. When a sale would not normally happen due to a lack of trust of the buyer based on his or her stats. Not for everyone that is new but for the select few that have VERY bad stats and are trying to improve them.
So, in 99.999% of the instances Ill take all orders and everything is in escrow. However, I would rather give someone with really bad stats the chance with an FE than turn them down all together.
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vote for a feature request to add a S.A.F.E. vendor group to vendors who make that pledge in their forum profile.
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=41745.msg457801#new
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Im all for Escrow, 100 percent.. But it has been known for vendors to get scammed. It totally sucks, especially when you are dealing with a high ticket item.
I experimented. I had two prices, one totally within escrow and one FE.. Of course the FE price was cheaer and the in escrow had limits. But I gave them a choice. You would think that this squashed the issue.. Not even close, I was reported to DPR many times because people thought I demanded FE and was a scammer.. Didn't take brain surgeon to look and see that I wasn't...
So now, when I vend, I will keep it in escrow but as buyers know, that they would never have an issue with me. As with most honest vendors, but still I like escrow, its there to protect both parties. I just wish we lived in a perfect world where everyone is honest.
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The problem isn't with FE, it is with vendors expecting or even requiring it. As I have said, I know there are scam buyers out there, but do you think that if you added up all the scam buyer "takings" you would even come close to holding a candle to Tony76? Fuck no it wouldn't. FE is what built Tony76, so the only way to kill him is to cut off his food supply, and that supply is FE!
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it can be done. you just have to think with your head and not your wallet.
Ok, I'm no vendor, but I'd love to see You talking the same story after You've been scammed 2-3 times. USA S.A.F.E will turn to USA B.A.F.E = Buyers always finalize early... I think it's rather funny how You think that other vendors, who started vending to earn MONEY, will start to think with their head(heart) and not with their wallet.
~~sitamaja
i think you mistake my low post count and short membership time here in the forums (i lost my old password) for inexperience. ive been around the block a few times.
wretched, idk whats going on with quotes, it works, then sometimes it doesnt. but i agree a S.A.F.E. feature on SR would be good if it takes off. also, if you never as a vendor have anyone FE things like tony76 could never happen, which makes us all look bad as vendors. a tony76 will never come out of this group, which is good for buyers and in turn good for us vendors.
chronicpain, you sound like a perfect candidate for the group. consider joining up.
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I can vouch the fyg is no newb by far.
I'm pretty sure he was a grandfathered in vendor like myself.
:)
nomad
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I can vouch the fyg is no newb by far.
I'm pretty sure he was a grandfathered in vendor like myself.
:)
nomad
you would be correct sir. im pre-gawker too. and while i may have been gone for a while, SR was in my heart and thoughts everyday. sounds corny i know, but its true.
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Seems like a good idea to me.
But there are sometimes mitigating circumstances.
I think I'll reserve judgement for now.
I'll keep an eye on this thread and see what other vendors say.
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it's just too bad that the member for: only says 1 year. what happens in 5 months? does it change to 2 years? could there be a "pre-gawker" seal for those who came before? How many would it actually be I wonder. 3Jane fyg, Nomad, I am speaking of people actually selling things of course wretched doesn't need the pre-gawker seal on my profile page. I know when I got here. enough ramblings on for now. Have a nice rest of the night people!
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There is no doubt in my mind that escrow is what makes this magical place work.
With out it we would just be Topix.onion (lets face it).
I also as a vendor have NEVER asked anyone to FE.
With that said I would not want to commit to putting my name on a list or petition that would leave me effectively unable to request/require it from one particular user or member.
What is the plus side to this for me as a vendor? Gain more sales?
I don't have a problem with sales and right on my vendor profile I state "Do not F.E."
Want this to work? Have a SR sanctioned benefit to the vendor. Get DPR behind this.
Off the top of my head.....
I would (as a vendor) agree to NEVER even have the option of asking for F.E. if ....say my commission percentages were lowered (or something like that.)
A real benefit.
Like when a new vendor joins. Buyers do not have the option to finalize a transaction before 3 days IF the vendor has less then 35 transactions under his belt.
I would be willing to take that on as a permanent setting (with the exception of digital good of course) If there was a business benefit to me and my business.
Think of it as a tax deduction for playing with in the rules kinda thing.
That's just my .02btc
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There is no doubt in my mind that escrow is what makes this magical place work.
With out it we would just be Topix.onion (lets face it).
I also as a vendor have NEVER asked anyone to FE.
With that said I would not want to commit to putting my name on a list or petition that would leave me effectively unable to request/require it from one particular user or member.
What is the plus side to this for me as a vendor? Gain more sales?
I don't have a problem with sales and right on my vendor profile I state "Do not F.E."
Want this to work? Have a SR sanctioned benefit to the vendor. Get DPR behind this.
Off the top of my head.....
I would (as a vendor) agree to NEVER even have the option of asking for F.E. if ....say my commission percentages were lowered (or something like that.)
A real benefit.
Like when a new vendor joins. Buyers do not have the option to finalize a transaction before 3 days IF the vendor has less then 35 transactions under his belt.
I would be willing to take that on as a permanent setting (with the exception of digital good of course) If there was a business benefit to me and my business.
Think of it as a tax deduction for playing with in the rules kinda thing.
That's just my .02btc
i think one of the major benefits to us as vendors is that we are seen as being cast from a different mold than the likes of tony76, and other FE scammers that have come and gone. it says we will never be the next tony76. it says we will never abuse the trust that we have built to scam. it instills confidence in the buyers, that this group has gone thru the paces and can operate inside the rules and still make it. we dont need to scam, we are good at what we do.
i will not be the first person to admit that our escrow system has flaws. but no one has come up with a better one, and it seems to be working, so lets do our part to improve it. maybe there are circumstances when you should ask to FE. if they exist, then we need to identify them and let it be known so that buyers and sellers can know what to expect. for instance, in most cases i believe that the buyer would be well aware of any situation that might suggest a FE to be appropriate, and would most likely offer to FE if his intentions were not to scam. this would not be considered against the S.A.F.E. rules, and would allow that buyer with bad stats to work towards fixing them.
i personally dont believe in requesting FE because the seller has less than 4 buys, or hasnt spent enough, or his auto finalize is too high. if these things are problems, then decline the order. dont just say oh well FE cuz of this and this. if we stop working with those that sully the system, the system stays fresh. if you dont sell to buyers that have a high AF, then buyers will stop having high AF. same goes for refund ratios.
now im not saying FE should never happen. hell, lots of customers do it without it being asked for or even wanted. im not telling anyone that they cant do anything. but it would curb the hell out of large FE scams. if a S.A.F.E. member started asking for FE, flags would go up, questions would be asked in the forums, and many people we be saved from being scammed. so i guess in the end you are really doing it for your customers. not for a personal gain per se, although i feel some prestige would be attached to it, but for the ones we already work tirelessly to serve.
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I have not asked anyone to FE and don't plan on it. It is a challenge to commit to *never* using it though under any circumstances. Like air-dropping a pallet of coke from an airplane at night... I am probably going to want you to FE for that.
One option might be that SR limits the number of FEs per vendor. Maybe you get one FE for every X number of sales. This would prevent a culture of FEing every order but still empower the vendors to protect themselves when needed. Who has the potential to abuse the system? Every vendor that has ever or may ever require FE for a specific transaction OR the vendor who requires FE for every transaction?
Buyers need to feel safe to transact here if we are going to flourish. I think the simplest solution is for buyers to not participate in FE transactions. I question how often FE is used for mischief because of its popularity amongst buyers. Why are so many buyers using it if it is such a big problem?
Maybe it could be as simple as making an option to filter out FE listings when searching. This gives an advantage to the vendors who do not FE as they would get differentiation for the added security and stability they are offering the marketplace. If a vendor did not label his item as FE when making the listing then they buyer would not be able to FE.
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Thanks for starting this thread. I was just thinking of how to start it myself with any credibility, seeing that I am a buyer only and haven't been on the road all that long. My reputation is 100% but this is still a topic better started by a vender.
I recently went shopping for a small amount of personal use hash and was not happy to see how many more venders require FE on all orders. The logic being that most buyers are scammers waiting to happen and that all venders are above reproach. The escrow system is in place to protect both parties.
I especially find the "all the orders that I ship with a DCN arrive, this proves that I ship all the orders without a DCN" logic to be amusing. No, no it doesn't prove that. It proves that you ship when you are accountable and that using a DCN prevents you from being ripped off as well. Escrow + DCN = Profit!
Back to my small order of hash: I ended up going with BigBill for close to x2 what it would have cost me to order from some of the amazingly cheep, but FE required, newer venders. I once had an order from BB get lost in the mail. He was all set to reship when it finally arrived. I immediately messaged him to hold off, before I even had a chance to try it. A few hours later I finalized.
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the vendor shouldnt list a product for sale if he isnt prepared to wait for the escrow. quality vendors are aware of this. really low level shady guys are the ones that need that money right away. maybe its just an opinion but a vendor should have enough of a buffer that the money in escrow is like money in the bank. a quality vendor with a solid history should look at money in escrow the same as money in his/her pocket. i think this group will help establish a new breed of vendors and buyers.
quotes arent working for me but maybe a better answer than asking him to FE would be to start off with a small order, or breaking it up into smaller shipments. perhaps then you could have still made the sale. or perhaps as the customer didnt buy from you anyway, and maybe his intention was to scam. in which case he wouldnt have accepted your offer of a smaller order anyway. in which case you refuse to deal with him. in either case, you are not scammed, and you never have to ask to FE.
it can be done. you just have to think with your head and not your wallet.
+1 to you sir. i often hear vendors say things like "well there are legitimate reasons to request FE..."
which is definitely true at times, but liquidity of funds is NOT a legitimate reason. if you are a vendor, you should have enough inventory to supply customers and be able to float merchandize for a week or two. this doesn't mean buyers should shilly shally with finalizing once product has arrived, it means the exact opposite. vendors place trust in buyers, the least we can do is finalize ASAP when package arrives. it is their money after all.
scummy middleman with a tenuous grip on supply and habits to fund are usually the ones who universally demand FE. not saying this is always, certainly not trying to slight hardworking vendors, but being a "vendor" means something- generally that THEY personally have a supply of product, not their dude down the street, or, in other cases, at least enough cash flow to ensure a steady supply without needing FE
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The escrow system is the best attempt so far to protect from scams. It's not perfect, nothing is but here's my take on escrow and DCN.
There are a few main arguments about not using Escrow. One is "I can't afford to have that much money out, and if I get more money up front then I can purchase larger quantity's for a better deal and pass the savings to the buyer while increasing my bottom line"
And the other is "If I as a seller make someone FE then I surely protect myself against buyers trying to scam me"
Now starting with the first argument. I empathize with sellers not having enough resources to allow product to float around for days (or sometime weeks at a time for international orders). But if your small time and can't afford to float product then don't be a vender IMO. Or only sell a limited amount of orders using escrow and DCN until you build up a large enough product reserve to play with the big boys, then you can increase your orders. As a buyer I refuse to use venders that require everyone to FE. Temptation is a muther fucker and what's gonna stop someone from just cashing out their new money, making 100% profit and (after coming back from a vacation on the beach and banging hot sluts) setting up a new vender account. Nothing would stop someone from doing that. And if you're a vender that requires FE it has to cross your mind even if you don't act on it. So.....
I agree with using escrow and DCN, add some of Nomads common sense and you can't go wrong. There's no temptation for a vender to run off with everyone's cash taking a cross country trip systematically collecting hickies from strippers as souvenirs unless it's as result of legit business and not scamming.
And there's less incentive for a scammer to try if DCN's are involved. It's not perfect but it lowers the incentive and temptation for scams on both sides so it's a benefit.
There will always be the alternate acronym for S.A.F.E (Someone Always Fucks Everything up) but we do what we can right?
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i am so happy to see both buyers and sellers giving their opinions on this. im going to also start a list of buyers that support S.A.F.E. vendors in the OP. pm me if you are a buyer and would like to be included.
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Ok... good luck OP!
~~sitamaja
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Here's an example of a mitigating circumstance.
Stickafinger has great stats and is a pleasure to deal with but I asked him to FE cos I had a date, I was broke and I wanted to get drunk and laid. This is exactly how I put it to him and he was fine with it.
No word of a lie, ask him yourself.
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I think SAFE is a great idea.
To all the people saying FE should be regulated by SR, Fuck off. This issue has been covered extensively, you've just not been here long enough to have read about it. USE THE DAMN SEARCH FUNCTION!
There is no practical way for SR to regulate FE. Period!
That being said, i think this is a great idea. Best of luck!
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Knowing that SR needs the escrow system to work as well as it does (flawed or not) this idea is interesting and I keep coming back to it. Keep reading this thread.
But I still maintain that while I have never asked a buyer to F.E I would not want to feel like I surrendered my ability to do so (even if not 100%) for what feels like no gain to me.
Joining some club or adding "S.A.F.E." to my vendor profile just doesn't do it for me. As I said I would allow SR to take away my ability (as a vendor) to make buyers FE if there was a tangible benefit.
P.S. - From my buyer days. There is TONS of money that I had that never got put on to SR, because of a vendor requiring FE. I would have spent about 10,000 on New computer equipment on here by now (Macs and what not), but the only people selling wants F.E. So I have never bought any.
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As a newish (100) vender, I am in.
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Like air-dropping a pallet of coke from an airplane at night... I am probably going to want you to FE for that.
I loled :)
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Joining some club or adding "S.A.F.E." to my vendor profile just doesn't do it for me. As I said I would allow SR to take away my ability (as a vendor) to make buyers FE if there was a tangible benefit.
Ill agree with Shroomeister here, there is no real benefit to this. Sure, you will get a few vendors but without a benefit to the vendor there is no reason to join.
On top of that, it is not enforceable, If and that is a big IF, it takes off any vendor could stick S.A.F.E or S.A.E.F on there profile, still require FE and point to it saying "I am S.A.F.E approved via SR, you can FE with me" They may even point the person to their forum profile, if a group was created, as a reassurance. I have found that 9 out of 10 of the buyers on SR do not even know this board exists. So, it could open up a new vector for scammers to con more into FE'ing.
I can see the posts now
Hay everyone, I ordered from Tony77 and it never arrived. Was I scammer? He was a S.A.F.E vendor here on SR so I FE'ed as requested. How could a scammer be approved as being SAFE?
Dude, you were scammed. SAFE means that he will not ask you to FE
I though SAFE ment he was SAFE to order from because he had been validated by SR
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Unfortunately I think you are right. I am use to it now, but I recall being SHOCKED by the average collective mentality around here. :\
The above would totally happen.
"......but it said he was SAFE! :("
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S.A.F.E.? I wouldn't D.A.R.E.
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S.A.F.E.? I wouldn't D.A.R.E.
OMG, ROTFLMAO
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i thought i started this like a year ago :P
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i thought i started this like a year ago :P
... I see it worked for you too. :P
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the vendor shouldnt list a product for sale if he isnt prepared to wait for the escrow. quality vendors are aware of this. really low level shady guys are the ones that need that money right away. maybe its just an opinion but a vendor should have enough of a buffer that the money in escrow is like money in the bank. a quality vendor with a solid history should look at money in escrow the same as money in his/her pocket. i think this group will help establish a new breed of vendors and buyers.
quotes arent working for me but maybe a better answer than asking him to FE would be to start off with a small order, or breaking it up into smaller shipments. perhaps then you could have still made the sale. or perhaps as the customer didnt buy from you anyway, and maybe his intention was to scam. in which case he wouldnt have accepted your offer of a smaller order anyway. in which case you refuse to deal with him. in either case, you are not scammed, and you never have to ask to FE.
it can be done. you just have to think with your head and not your wallet.
+1 to you sir. i often hear vendors say things like "well there are legitimate reasons to request FE..."
which is definitely true at times, but liquidity of funds is NOT a legitimate reason. if you are a vendor, you should have enough inventory to supply customers and be able to float merchandize for a week or two. this doesn't mean buyers should shilly shally with finalizing once product has arrived, it means the exact opposite. vendors place trust in buyers, the least we can do is finalize ASAP when package arrives. it is their money after all.
scummy middleman with a tenuous grip on supply and habits to fund are usually the ones who universally demand FE. not saying this is always, certainly not trying to slight hardworking vendors, but being a "vendor" means something- generally that THEY personally have a supply of product, not their dude down the street, or, in other cases, at least enough cash flow to ensure a steady supply without needing FE
+1 to you too.
I think we need a few new rules.
1.
If you go offline for over 30 days, then you need 30 days again before forcing FE's on peeps.
How do I know you are the same vendor?
Also there should be a warning flag on any vendor who comes back up after 30 days.
Reason being, the SR review system isn't perfect. It totally sucks ;) IMHO
2.
No requesting FE after a sale is committed to. That means no "in transit" FE's.
And a big fuck you for asking for Fe's for 1/4 oz's, what a joke.
I'm sure a few fell for it.
As always, a few ruin it for everyone, in this case the honest vendors.
While I'm at it. How about an automatic search function on SR to the forums?
I click on the vendor, and get his forum reviews, which I trust slightly, but it's saved my butt more than once.
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i thought i started this like a year ago :P
I was hoping you'd chime in. Here is an example folks, of a top tier vendor who uses their head, not their wallet. Why are vendor getting scammed? Because they are taking a risk with a buyer who is new, has spent little, has high auto/refund rates. As a vendor, use your head and don't sell to these people deny them service. Have a threshold where you are willing and not willing to risk and then blame scams after that on your set limits rather than good/all buyers. Another way to 'use your head and not your wallet' is to only require certain buyers to FE. Again, this will time time, effort and service but then again if your thinking by using your wallet, you should probably be providing some sort of service, no?
I totally agree with this thread idea and support it 100%. Vendor should be proud that take effort in their service and are loyal to the system so that we all can benefit greatly.
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i had a stoned idea the other night after reading about the hidden listings.
Was imagining being a private SR vendor selling only to "trusted" members with listings only people i had cleared were able to see.
Just a random flash i'm not a seller nor do i want to be, real crappy workload/risk reward ;-)
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the only time my offerings are in hidden mode is when i am filling pre-orders.
customers ask me to save them so much and if i can i agree. i try to guess as
good as i can on quantity - fill the pre-orders then open list what is left.
I am proud i have only asked for a FE 1 time to a person that wasn't within
the continental us. they ordered several time after that and were never asked to FE again!!
I try to use common sense and intuition - it has really served me well :)
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Being an experienced buyer in this here parts I'd like to say.
Limitless, and Christy,
A few good vendors don't make for the few bad ones.
I consider you both trusted vendors, to a fault, almost.
Kudo's to all the good vendors.
You guys rock!!!!
However,
We buyers need a few rule changes, without them this will not stop.
Even with them, it will still be a problem.
Question is, does SR Support care?
I already know the answer, and so do you all. :-[
They have always been more than fair for me. Please don't think I'm trolling, or picking on them.
Just a few changes might help. This isn't a democracy, I understand how it's run.
I'm making my plea to management, who I bow to :)
I think my spending ability, and loyalty to the system should give us some consideration.
I'm tired of hearing there's nothing we can do, when there are a few adjustments that could be made.
Example, money pak conversion is out of control.
Vendor accounts can be traded or sold without a buyers knowledge.
It seems daily I reply to threads to report selectively scamming vendors bypassing the system to pop a new buyer.
Off soap box......
I'm cool, and only lost minimal amounts compared to some of the stories I read.
I guess I'd do S.A.F.E. but it reminds me of "just say no" campaign, which worked oh so well ::)
IRL, I'm not a stupid pot smoking moron.
Just a pot smoker ;) I forgot to say "no" 8)
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"Follow the Gourd!!!"
"No, Follow the Shoe!!"
I'm no vendor and I mean all due respectto vendor and buyer alike but why don't you just urge people to beware and do what they want once forewarned?
Assuming they are abiding by the contract agreed to in using this facility that is.
Are you trying to bring divide and conquer polarization tactics to SR or is it always just an unintended, or sometimes not, consequence to any type of "union" forming?
This place is about freedom and freedom has risks baked into it, risks that weed out the weak and leave a stronger breed of participant.
Freedom also turns a suspicious eye to any type of solidarity campaign, as a campaign of solidifying control over the "union", often by competing factions, usually isn't far behind.
Sometimes it's just good intentions I suppose.
The only pledge I take is that of the warrior against all forms of tyranny over man, the only constitution one of vigilance against exploit by any known historic play on the ignorance of the well intended.
The only code I live by is one of watchfulness for all new forms of deceit, or old ones in new dress, that may bring man to lay down His Will in a fools tribute to the spirit of dominion, and one of adaptive response to the changing flux springing forth from the source of all things, morphed by the spirit of all actors and made whole by the unchanging truth that we were made free and must be free to actualize. And one of eternal evangelism to that end.
Sorry, I get carried away but.........pacts for no FE don't fit in that. SR does though. And the rules as per the owner are a good compromise that at once leave all free to go out and form their own site or stay here and enjoy the benefits/quirks of escrow or the thrill of taking fate into one's own hands and working without a net, on a transaction by transaction basis.
Seems as close to perfect as it gets considering the challenges to me.
I took my FE lumps early and again later. I'll still FE. When I can afford the risk and the value of FE to me is worth it, at that time.
Better to spend time writing a primer "How to spot the next 420 scam, short time scammers and bad buyers".
Educate to the best of your skill and the last of your strength and use your actions as an example.
If it's good people will act in harmony of their own will. Except people who just want to win an argument. They will flame you and give you bad karma LOL.
-
"Follow the Gourd!!!"
"No, Follow the Shoe!!"
I'm no vendor and I mean all due respectto vendor and buyer alike but why don't you just urge people to beware and do what they want once forewarned?
Assuming they are abiding by the contract agreed to in using this facility that is.
Are you trying to bring divide and conquer polarization tactics to SR or is it always just an unintended, or sometimes not, consequence to any type of "union" forming?
This place is about freedom and freedom has risks baked into it, risks that weed out the weak and leave a stronger breed of participant.
Freedom also turns a suspicious eye to any type of solidarity campaign, as a campaign of solidifying control over the "union", often by competing factions, usually isn't far behind.
Sometimes it's just good intentions I suppose.
The only pledge I take is that of the warrior against all forms of tyranny over man, the only constitution one of vigilance against exploit by any known historic play on the ignorance of the well intended.
The only code I live by is one of watchfulness for all new forms of deceit, or old ones in new dress, that may bring man to lay down His Will in a fools tribute to the spirit of dominion, and one of adaptive response to the changing flux springing forth from the source of all things, morphed by the spirit of all actors and made whole by the unchanging truth that we were made free and must be free to actualize. And one of eternal evangelism to that end.
Sorry, I get carried away but.........pacts for no FE don't fit in that. SR does though. And the rules as per the owner are a good compromise that at once leave all free to go out and form their own site or stay here and enjoy the benefits/quirks of escrow or the thrill of taking fate into one's own hands and working without a net, on a transaction by transaction basis.
Seems as close to perfect as it gets considering the challenges to me.
I took my FE lumps early and again later. I'll still FE. When I can afford the risk and the value of FE to me is worth it, at that time.
Better to spend time writing a primer "How to spot the next 420 scam, short time scammers and bad buyers".
Educate to the best of your skill and the last of your strength and use your actions as an example.
If it's good people will act in harmony of their own will. Except people who just want to win an argument. They will flame you and give you bad karma LOL.
Wow, you would be fun to sit down and chat over a joint, IRL. ;D
My answer on the former is yes.
On the latter, rules need adjusting, and no some are not following "the contract"
Those I bag, for the good of the group.
I sense your belief is we are all in it for ourselves, and to hell with group consensus.
To hell with protecting the herd, follow your own path, and be forewarned.
I am lucky, and skilled, the rest have their chance as well. Life is full of risk, you take your chances.
Be responsible for your own actions.
Did I get it?
As far as your last statement, myself, I done just that ;)
I see we have traveled down the same road in life, interesting.
I even bet you walk your talk. RESPECT
Nothing you have stated is incorrect, nor can I fully disagree, but I do disagree. ;)
A few changes are in order, period.
Now onto national health insurance....... :D
-
I am a buyer, not a vendor, but I do have many years experience running a business and selling online. Here is my 2 cents.
If you are asked to finalize early, even if a newb, buy from a different vendor!
Per SR "Buyers Guide", I will NEVER FE for product again, I don't need the stress of "Have I been ripped off or not".
I know there are those who disagree, but a pro seller should not have to get money in advance to keep their stock alive, if you can't afford to keep stock on hand, that is terrible business practice, and a recipe for disaster. Basically, if you don't have something to sell, then don't list it.
That is why escrow is there. Not only to protect buyers, but to protect sellers as well.
There are too many great, professional sellers here to take a chance with your money.
Just remember, if you do FE, and there is a problem with the transaction, you have virtually NO recourse. Your bitcoin/money is gone, and you have no product to show for it. Let's face it, this ain't eBay or Amazon, in those marketplaces, if there is a problem, you have other avenues to recover your funds.
Supposedly sellers ask for FE because of too many canceled orders. There is a term that is used in the business world, it is called "customer liability", which means basically, if you are in business, you MUST expect some customer liability, you have to build that into your long term plan. How many vendors here actually have a "long term plan". You have to factor in some percentage of loss when selling, that is a given. Sellers must factor that in when they estimate their profit margin. If you are doing business on per transaction, per sale profit margin, you are not going to stay around for very long, because you have not factored that liability into your profit margin. Of course there is a margin of error, but if you allow for that loss, in pricing, shipping, supply, etc. you will "most" always show a quarterly profit. How much customer liability do you think a company like Walmart deals with quarterly? I know, this isn't Walmart, but the model works for any business, no matter the size. Succesful vendors should have some idea of customer liability when doing business, especially on SR. But, sadly, this isn't a perfect world, and as with any business, they come and go, but planning on this liability would seem to be more essential here, than anywhere. After all, as a seller, here or mainstream, you do have the right to refuse to do business with anyone you choose.
If you have to cancel an order, there must be a reason, or maybe you just changed your mind, SO WHAT!? You have that right, that's why SR gives you that option.
If you have never read the SR buyers guide, I would highly recomend you take the time to do so. Read the entire thing. SR has taken great pains and time to set things up, as best possible for non legal transactions, to protect the safety, money, and reputation of buyers and vendors alike.
It takes a lot for me to leave any feedback less than 5/5, but waiting on an order, with zero communication/response from the vendor, supposedly shipped via Priority Mail, for 8 or 9 days is pushing it.. Basically, I am fucked out of $100 bucks, just for being a newb. DUH, WHAT WAS I THINKING?
I hope this provides some sort of insight, good or bad, but, like I said, "Just My 2 Cents.
Thanks,
Peace!
-
"Follow the Gourd!!!"
"No, Follow the Shoe!!"
I'm no vendor and I mean all due respectto vendor and buyer alike but why don't you just urge people to beware and do what they want once forewarned?
Assuming they are abiding by the contract agreed to in using this facility that is.
Are you trying to bring divide and conquer polarization tactics to SR or is it always just an unintended, or sometimes not, consequence to any type of "union" forming?
This place is about freedom and freedom has risks baked into it, risks that weed out the weak and leave a stronger breed of participant.
Freedom also turns a suspicious eye to any type of solidarity campaign, as a campaign of solidifying control over the "union", often by competing factions, usually isn't far behind.
Sometimes it's just good intentions I suppose.
The only pledge I take is that of the warrior against all forms of tyranny over man, the only constitution one of vigilance against exploit by any known historic play on the ignorance of the well intended.
The only code I live by is one of watchfulness for all new forms of deceit, or old ones in new dress, that may bring man to lay down His Will in a fools tribute to the spirit of dominion, and one of adaptive response to the changing flux springing forth from the source of all things, morphed by the spirit of all actors and made whole by the unchanging truth that we were made free and must be free to actualize. And one of eternal evangelism to that end.
Sorry, I get carried away but.........pacts for no FE don't fit in that. SR does though. And the rules as per the owner are a good compromise that at once leave all free to go out and form their own site or stay here and enjoy the benefits/quirks of escrow or the thrill of taking fate into one's own hands and working without a net, on a transaction by transaction basis.
Seems as close to perfect as it gets considering the challenges to me.
I took my FE lumps early and again later. I'll still FE. When I can afford the risk and the value of FE to me is worth it, at that time.
Better to spend time writing a primer "How to spot the next 420 scam, short time scammers and bad buyers".
Educate to the best of your skill and the last of your strength and use your actions as an example.
If it's good people will act in harmony of their own will. Except people who just want to win an argument. They will flame you and give you bad karma LOL.
Wow, you would be fun to sit down and chat over a joint, IRL. ;D
My answer on the former is yes.
On the latter, rules need adjusting, and no some are not following "the contract"
Those I bag, for the good of the group.
I sense your belief is we are all in it for ourselves, and to hell with group consensus.
To hell with protecting the herd, follow your own path, and be forewarned.
I am lucky, and skilled, the rest have their chance as well. Life is full of risk, you take your chances.
Be responsible for your own actions.
Did I get it?
As far as your last statement, myself, I done just that ;)
I see we have traveled down the same road in life, interesting.
I even bet you walk your talk. RESPECT
Nothing you have stated is incorrect, nor can I fully disagree, but I do disagree. ;)
A few changes are in order, period.
Now onto national health insurance....... :D
Actually no, you missed the entire constructive part and drew a very wrong conclusion that I care not for anyone but myself.
Forming groups is fine, it's a natural part of the human experience. All of society came to be as a result of humans recognizing the far greater advantages of long term cooperation over short term exploitation. I love the man because the man is me. I have no loftier, out of body kind appreciation but seeing my own prosperity in what the specialists aplenty in this world bring me, and the chance to hone a specialty of my own in turn is enough recognition of the value of others for me.
But I can't ignore why I'm here in a clandestine bb instead of walking proud in the light of day now can i?
Not all group activity yeilds more for all than the inputs and the largest group activities incariably become an entity in themselves that serves only the well placed and whomever else is willing to stoop to thier level for tainted alms. The legitamacy these groups enjoy allows them to run roughshod over large sects of the population just so long as enough people overall are allowed to feel rightous in thier conspiracy with these groups, as the anti drug people enjoy with every ruined life of a non violent person, every new escalation in the insanity of violence and greed and weaponization on both sides of the most rightoes and democratically approved war on drugs. Of course if a few more people saw what really takes place they might feel a bit guilty about making such heavy handed judgements and insisting armed men go out and do violence to innocent people, turning them into criminals themselves in the process. And the total ploice state ratchets up.
Yes, a good many people have to intentionall NOT see the truth of what this is or else have to face the realities of what their 2 cents in the local discussion group followed by thier pulling the handle has led to. Horrific to face I'm sure and there fore most will not face it unless forced to.
Nope, not all groups are destined for a wholesom bettering of all persons affected and the tone of the group at it's inception can give a clue into how it might go.
If the tone is one of forcing others to to the will of those holding what they see to be a superior plan, regardless of what each individual might wish, then the tone is ripe for becoming a group that evetually tosses individuals into the grinder as a small sacrafice for the percieved better good envisioned by a minority.
Even 51% votes are driven by a minority, that's how those people who can't look into the realities of the drug war, the bombing campaigns, the decades of starvation thorugh blockades, the holocaust like treatment doled out by irealis to Palastinians, the complete and culpable guilt that when the police stae no longer pulls any punches and due process is a joke to the secret police, their good intentions, with a dose of envy and slight will to see thier neighbor squirm a bit, laid the foundation for it.
Health care? Get rid of every protectioist agency guarranteeing disproportionate profits to a technical field that even against the flow of inflation should have yeild huge reductions in cost with huge increases in product every year like every other tech field NOT protected, meddled with and made partners with the parasites that are the corperatist governments.
But for the doctors to back thier drug war they get to be god with a script pad and a mansion on the lake. The cops get thier locked in budgets and thier hi powered toys, the pharmas get to make bank coming and going and the gangs get to be warlords terrorizing their communities.
And the politicians get health care paid for me at the threat of fine, lail or death.
But I suppose you want to send the battle hardened cop to kick in my door and shoot my dog because I make no difference between a taxer and a strong armed robber, never mind even if I didn't i cold never agree that more group disfunction is not the answer, removing the original group disfunction is.
Nope, I am not self centered but i am healthily selfish enough to not want the people I need to join in the division of labor for all our prosperity to not be destroyed by the ambitions of the "selfless" groupthink. And i can see them coming a mile away. Good intentions with undercurrents of anger and vengfulness. Not healthy.
You asked for it.
-
As a buyer I'm certainly in favor of this, and hopefully it catches on. I'd also like to see other buyers stop giving business to those who always require FE (even when their transaction history is solid). That indicates to me that the seller doesn't have the necessary capital to maintain his business if he needs the money right away. Also, it's an unbalanced way to share risk: the buyer is on the hook almost exclusively if something goes wrong, and has to depend on the seller to return his money if the package gets lost/stolen.
-
"Follow the Gourd!!!"
"No, Follow the Shoe!!"
I'm no vendor and I mean all due respectto vendor and buyer alike but why don't you just urge people to beware and do what they want once forewarned?
Assuming they are abiding by the contract agreed to in using this facility that is.
Are you trying to bring divide and conquer polarization tactics to SR or is it always just an unintended, or sometimes not, consequence to any type of "union" forming?
This place is about freedom and freedom has risks baked into it, risks that weed out the weak and leave a stronger breed of participant.
Freedom also turns a suspicious eye to any type of solidarity campaign, as a campaign of solidifying control over the "union", often by competing factions, usually isn't far behind.
Sometimes it's just good intentions I suppose.
The only pledge I take is that of the warrior against all forms of tyranny over man, the only constitution one of vigilance against exploit by any known historic play on the ignorance of the well intended.
The only code I live by is one of watchfulness for all new forms of deceit, or old ones in new dress, that may bring man to lay down His Will in a fools tribute to the spirit of dominion, and one of adaptive response to the changing flux springing forth from the source of all things, morphed by the spirit of all actors and made whole by the unchanging truth that we were made free and must be free to actualize. And one of eternal evangelism to that end.
Sorry, I get carried away but.........pacts for no FE don't fit in that. SR does though. And the rules as per the owner are a good compromise that at once leave all free to go out and form their own site or stay here and enjoy the benefits/quirks of escrow or the thrill of taking fate into one's own hands and working without a net, on a transaction by transaction basis.
Seems as close to perfect as it gets considering the challenges to me.
I took my FE lumps early and again later. I'll still FE. When I can afford the risk and the value of FE to me is worth it, at that time.
Better to spend time writing a primer "How to spot the next 420 scam, short time scammers and bad buyers".
Educate to the best of your skill and the last of your strength and use your actions as an example.
If it's good people will act in harmony of their own will. Except people who just want to win an argument. They will flame you and give you bad karma LOL.
Wow, you would be fun to sit down and chat over a joint, IRL. ;D
My answer on the former is yes.
On the latter, rules need adjusting, and no some are not following "the contract"
Those I bag, for the good of the group.
I sense your belief is we are all in it for ourselves, and to hell with group consensus.
To hell with protecting the herd, follow your own path, and be forewarned.
I am lucky, and skilled, the rest have their chance as well. Life is full of risk, you take your chances.
Be responsible for your own actions.
Did I get it?
As far as your last statement, myself, I done just that ;)
I see we have traveled down the same road in life, interesting.
I even bet you walk your talk. RESPECT
Nothing you have stated is incorrect, nor can I fully disagree, but I do disagree. ;)
A few changes are in order, period.
Now onto national health insurance....... :D
Actually no, you missed the entire constructive part and drew a very wrong conclusion that I care not for anyone but myself.
Forming groups is fine, it's a natural part of the human experience. All of society came to be as a result of humans recognizing the far greater advantages of long term cooperation over short term exploitation. I love the man because the man is me. I have no loftier, out of body kind appreciation but seeing my own prosperity in what the specialists aplenty in this world bring me, and the chance to hone a specialty of my own in turn is enough recognition of the value of others for me.
But I can't ignore why I'm here in a clandestine bb instead of walking proud in the light of day now can i?
Not all group activity yeilds more for all than the inputs and the largest group activities incariably become an entity in themselves that serves only the well placed and whomever else is willing to stoop to thier level for tainted alms. The legitamacy these groups enjoy allows them to run roughshod over large sects of the population just so long as enough people overall are allowed to feel rightous in thier conspiracy with these groups, as the anti drug people enjoy with every ruined life of a non violent person, every new escalation in the insanity of violence and greed and weaponization on both sides of the most rightoes and democratically approved war on drugs. Of course if a few more people saw what really takes place they might feel a bit guilty about making such heavy handed judgements and insisting armed men go out and do violence to innocent people, turning them into criminals themselves in the process. And the total ploice state ratchets up.
Yes, a good many people have to intentionall NOT see the truth of what this is or else have to face the realities of what their 2 cents in the local discussion group followed by thier pulling the handle has led to. Horrific to face I'm sure and there fore most will not face it unless forced to.
Nope, not all groups are destined for a wholesom bettering of all persons affected and the tone of the group at it's inception can give a clue into how it might go.
If the tone is one of forcing others to to the will of those holding what they see to be a superior plan, regardless of what each individual might wish, then the tone is ripe for becoming a group that evetually tosses individuals into the grinder as a small sacrafice for the percieved better good envisioned by a minority.
Even 51% votes are driven by a minority, that's how those people who can't look into the realities of the drug war, the bombing campaigns, the decades of starvation thorugh blockades, the holocaust like treatment doled out by irealis to Palastinians, the complete and culpable guilt that when the police stae no longer pulls any punches and due process is a joke to the secret police, their good intentions, with a dose of envy and slight will to see thier neighbor squirm a bit, laid the foundation for it.
Health care? Get rid of every protectioist agency guarranteeing disproportionate profits to a technical field that even against the flow of inflation should have yeild huge reductions in cost with huge increases in product every year like every other tech field NOT protected, meddled with and made partners with the parasites that are the corperatist governments.
But for the doctors to back thier drug war they get to be god with a script pad and a mansion on the lake. The cops get thier locked in budgets and thier hi powered toys, the pharmas get to make bank coming and going and the gangs get to be warlords terrorizing their communities.
And the politicians get health care paid for me at the threat of fine, lail or death.
But I suppose you want to send the battle hardened cop to kick in my door and shoot my dog because I make no difference between a taxer and a strong armed robber, never mind even if I didn't i cold never agree that more group disfunction is not the answer, removing the original group disfunction is.
Nope, I am not self centered but i am healthily selfish enough to not want the people I need to join in the division of labor for all our prosperity to not be destroyed by the ambitions of the "selfless" groupthink. And i can see them coming a mile away. Good intentions with undercurrents of anger and vengfulness. Not healthy.
You asked for it.
+1, yes I did :P
Glad I didn't read all that high.
Still like to smoke a joint with you.
I don't need everyone to agree. Nothing would improve.
I guess I was implying you are selfish, but it's not what I meant.
I'm not 100% in disagreement with you. Just find you views very interesting.
In the animal world, the herd takes care of the children.
No need to let the predictors to eat them, is all I meant.
Other species just eat their children themselves.
Which one our we?
I sometimes wonder.
-
after reading all of the posts made in this thread i first want to thank everyone for your generous input. i have come to the understanding that the idea of SAFE is good, but its not perfect. i think a better type of vendor organization is one that promotes a better understanding and the proper use of the escrow system (i.e. when you should or should not FE), the feedback system (i.e. that you can finalize without leaving feedback), and the forums (i.e. search for your vendors review threads), etc.
the reiteration of SAFE would not require vendors to absolutely never need to have a buyer FE, but instead would vow to use it responsibly. i am going to update the OP to reflect this.
-
I wouldn't sign a petition against early finalization, but neither would I abuse the privilege. Here are the Grand Wizard's recently updated shipping policies.
- If someone wants me to mail their package first class instead of priority, I will do so if they finalize early. If the package does not arrive I will reship one time after 21 days. Should the second attempt at mailing fail, there will be no reship or refund.
- I reserve the right to require early finalization on international orders should I start running into delivery issues to a particular country.
- I might in the future run occasional SR forum specials which require early finalization, or offer extra product for those who FE.
If you don't like these policies you are free to order from somebody else or to upgrade your shipping to priority. And if you FE I will still do my best to make you a happy customer. Honestly, I think a "No Early Finalization Ever" policy is like a "No New Taxes Ever" policy. It sounds good, but it may not apply all that well in practice. For one thing, it's going to make many vendors a lot more reluctant about doing international transactions.
-
The Grand Wizard speaks with wisdom.. again. :P
-
OMG, when I read this title, I literally had to laugh out loud!
Americans are NOT having it on this FE and the outrage may be warranted!
I got to this thread late. I can't wait to go back and read what has unfolded!
-
catchy name
-
How about this instead - A list of all vendors in the form of a policy matrix.
For example vendors A-Z:
Vendor A Vendor B Vendor C
S.A.F.E. Member Yes No ....
Profile threatens new No Yes
buyers with ban list
Requires 5 star reviews No Yes
to continue business
Guarantees message Yes No
response within
48 hours
Has one visible review
that describes quality of Yes No
product
<or whatever criteria is useful>
-
It's pretty simple. In "a few words from the Dread Pirate Roberts" located at the top right on the SR Home Page, (http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/index.php/silkroad/about) he clearly states the following -
1. Always use the escrow system! This can't be stressed enough. 99% of scams are from people who set up fake vendor accounts and ask buyers to pay them directly or release payment before their order arrives. This behavior should be reported immediately. If you do choose to do this, we will be completely unable to help you in the event of fraud.
2. Read the forum and the wiki. They contain a wealth of information and many in our forum community are eager to help a new member with a respectful attitude.
3. Start small. Do a few small trades until you are comfortable with the process before throwing all of your Bitcoins at a big purchase.
If you follow these principals, you'll minimize the risks associated with using a website such as Silk Road. :)
-
The Grand Wizard speaks with wisdom.. again. :P
While the Grand Wizard is always glad to be recognized for his wisdom (and sparkly sports jackets), I must admit that my FE experiment is still in progress. I can already see one issue with using FE vs. staying in escrow: information about the order. While the address info disappears after the order is confirmed, it's still easy to find exactly how much of what was ordered and when it was sent. When you FE getting that information becomes a great deal more complicated: was it 3 bags of 2c-b and a 5-strip of 25i, or 3 bags of 2ci and a bag of 2c-b?
I am probably going to remove the early finalization requirement for first class mail, although I may still require priority shipping for any order costing above a certain number of bitcoins. And rather than requiring early finalization to countries with dodgy arrival history, I might just refuse to ship there altogether. While FE provides better bitcoin liquidity in the short run, I'm not entirely convinced that the various hassles and risks outweigh the rewards.
-
Wadozo I don't understand this comment at all.
Lots of vendors right now are violating this on their profile page. Are you willing to report them all?
It's pretty simple. In "a few words from the Dread Pirate Roberts" located at the top right on the SR Home Page, (http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/index.php/silkroad/about) he clearly states the following -
1. Always use the escrow system! This can't be stressed enough. 99% of scams are from people who set up fake vendor accounts and ask buyers to pay them directly or release payment before their order arrives. This behavior should be reported immediately.
-
That, in my book is where FE comes into play. When a sale would not normally happen due to a lack of trust of the buyer based on his or her stats. Not for everyone that is new but for the select few that have VERY bad stats and are trying to improve them.
Hmm..... so if a user's stats go bad they just make a new account and you'll sell to them?